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Peter Grey
Posts: 1488
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:37 pm
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ (PRC)

Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:04 pm

I have to ask for those of us that don't fly RW, what additional costs are associated with Night Flight?
Equipment requirements are different in the US. The reason I have the cost is to add another layer of planning. IRL when I did this trip that was one of the actual decisions we had to make, equip the 150s for night (we would have needed spare fuses), or leave em day only.

500$ would be about the cost to fix the broken nav lights that all your guys's planes have... :wink:
Peter Grey
Instructor - ZLA
N31ER
"Nice Landing, Contact ground point 5"

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Shawn Goldsworthy
FAB Member
Posts: 3156
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:57 pm
VATSIM CID: 925085
Location: Halifax, Canada (CYHZ)

Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:09 pm

Ahh yes spare fuses. Also required in Canada for planes with fuses. Since mostly everything has breakers now, it was never an issue.
Shawn "SX" Goldsworthy
ZLA Faclility Engineer
N123SX
xxx554

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Wayne Conrad
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:24 am
Location: Phoenix, Aridzona

Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:11 am

A little bird tells me that some of you are planning on not flying proper traffic patterns when you do your touch 'n goes at your required stops.

Tsk tsk. Are you cutting your gas and time that close?

:P

My flight will begin as soon as my rear seat passenger gets back from the surgery to shorten his legs so he'll fit in my plane.

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Wayne Conrad
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:24 am
Location: Phoenix, Aridzona

Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:46 pm

AWOS-1 make me very, very cross.

:evil:

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Peter Grey
Posts: 1488
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:37 pm
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ (PRC)

Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:01 pm

Ok guys, time to get into how this is going to work day to day wise.

The basic plan is this.

Each person who is competing should make a *seperate* thread in this forum titled "[N Number] KPRC-KMQY" or something to that effect. In that thread you should post the progess of your flight. For those who dont want to give away secrets, some parts of this may be PMed to me instead of being posted. Items marked with an * must be posted in the forum thread (These items are easily discoverable by a basic search on vataware, so there is no operational advantage to hiding this stuff).

*****************************

1 Post should be made per leg of flight. For the purposes of these posts a "leg" is defined as takeoff to full stop landing.

Posts should contain the following (* means an item must be posted, non * items may be PMed to me as the pilots descretion)

For the first leg include the following:
*Upgrades bought
*Weight of aircraft with all payload and no fuel (empty weight + you + 450 lbs)
*Max takeoff weight
*Max landing weight
*Fuel capacity

For all legs include.

*Callsign
*Category
*Leg Departure
*Leg Destination
Intermediate stops (wheels touching ground but not full stop)
Estimated average wind (to determine if anyone violates category rules on speed)
Cruise Altitude
Starting Fuel level
Takeoff Weight
Ending Fuel level
Landing Weight
Amount of fuel purchased at stop
Price of fuel (as determined from airnav.com) per gallon
Total fuel cost
Departure Time/Date (Sim time)
Departure Time/Date (Real life time) (to allow for monitoring on vataware)
Arrival Time (Sim time)
Flight Time of leg
Total flight time since last hotel stop
Objectives completed on leg (include location where completed if a touch and go is made)
Incidents during flight (any abnormal event regardless of sim induced or pilot induced, I will determine if any penalitied will be incured based on write up)
Total running price of trip (upgrades + fuel + hotel + oxygen)
Remarks/Story Telling

***If overnight stop***
Hotel staying at (must be within 10 miles of airport, unless approved before stop)
Price per room
Total price (2 rooms)
Source of pricing information

***If buying Oxygen***
Amount of oxygen purchased (you may buy oxygen for more then 1 leg at a stop, 1 leg of oxygen costs 100$ and weighs 50 lbs)
Price

***********************

A summary of rules can be found in the first couple of posts, to expand where needed. Please reread these as changed have been made:

Objective:

Get from KPRC (Earnest A Love Field, Prescott, AZ) to KMQY (Smyrna, TN).

You have the following cargo:
Yourself
2 Passengers (one who weighs 150 lbs and another who weighs 200 lbs)
Everyones bags (total weight of 100 lbs)
Total payload is 450 lbs + your weight.
AVGAS is assumed to weigh 6 lbs per gallon.

On the way you need to meet the following objectives: (all can be done without going more then 150 miles off a direct line)

Land at an airport located at 7000ft + MSL.
Land on a runway that is less then 3000 feet long.
Land on a non paved runway.
Land on a runway that is less then 50 feet wide.
You must land at a Class C, D, E, and G airport.
Land at an airport with no weather reporting
Land at an airport with an AWOS-1 Reporting System
Land at an airport with an AWOS-2 Reporting System
Land at an airport with an AWOS-3 Reporting System
Land at an airport with an ASOS Reporting System

You can meet more then 1 objective at an airport.

Here are the rules/other information:
You start out with a full tank of fuel for free at KPRC (you are not required to take full tanks)

You must pay for fuel and hotel rooms along your route in accordance with your airplane needs and local fuel/hotel rates. You need 2 hotel rooms per over night stop.

You may not exceed 8 hours of flight time without stopping at a hotel for an overnight stay.

Your flight starts on 9/1 at 0600 Arizona Time (1300Z) (regardless of actual real life time).

From then on do not change the time except for fuel stops (add 1 hour minimum) and hotel stops (add 10 hours minimum).

Example: You take off from KPRC at 0600 on 9/1, and land at KINW at 0745 (1.75 hours flight time), stop for 1 hour for fuel and takeoff at 0845 (you can change your sim time to this new 1 hour+ time). Fly to KAEG and land at 1045 (2 hours flight time, total now 3.75).

Fuel up and takeoff 1 hour later (1145) and fly to KTCC and land at 1400 (2.25 hours flight time, total now 6 hours). You takeoff at 1500

You then fly to KAMA and land at 1645 (1.75 houts, total time now 7.75 hours). You must stay the night at KAMA (as otherwise you will break 8 hours).

The earliest you can takeoff from KAMA is 10 hours after landing (or 0245 on 9/2). etc...

You must fly the same airplane the entire trip.

The competition will be split into 3 categories:

Less then 120 KIAS maximum level flight speed (C172 or slower)
120 KIAS to 180 KIAS
180+ KIAS

1 Person may enter more then 1 category.

All flights are restricted to VFR/SVFR.

All flights must be done on VATSIM with a flight plan filed for VFR flight (to be tracked by vataware). Please attempt to ensure flights are logged by vataware for my convience. A comment should be included in the remarks of all flight plans stating "ZLA flight planning challenge" this is to differentiate non flight planning challenge flights done during the competition period.

All flight must be completed by midnight 1/1/2009 (real time)

You may enter the competition at any time

Real weather must be used for all flights

You may fly your legs are often as you like in terms of real life (aka when you take a 10 hour hotel stop, you arent required to actually wait 10 hours IRL, just set you sim time to 10 hours later).

You may fly alone or in a group.

All planes are equipped for day flight, without a working GPS unless you buy one of the following upgrades before departing from KPRC.

Night flight Upgrade (fly between sunset/sunrise): 500$
GPS Upgrade (Use GPS for navagation): 1000$

Additionally for each leg you may buy oxygen if you plan to fly above 12,500 feet for that leg. Not all airports have oxygen available, check your A/FD or ask me if your not sure how to check). You can only buy O2 From airports that have it available.

Any "incidents" during the flight will cost 1000$ to fix. Note that random failure induced by a sim are not counted in this. Only pilot induced issues (crashes).

Be honest, I can't play police for this, yes you can cheat without getting caught, but theres no price.

The following FARs will be enforced using various techniques during the competition: (Note some FARs are simplified for convience)

91.13: No careless or reckless operation of an aircaft (read this to mean follow all VATSIM rules).

Penality: DQ

91.105: You must be at the computer when flying (read this to mean follow all vatsim rules regarding unattended connections)

Penality: DQ

91.117: Aircraft speed limits: 250 KIAS below 10000 feet, 200 knots below class B airspace, and within 4 NM and 2500 feet AGL of any class C or D airports.

Penality: 3 Hour flight time and 1000$ fine per each occurance.

91.123: You must follow all ATC instructions.

Penality: 3 Hour flight time and 1000$ fine per each occurance.

91.126 and 91.127: You must follow proper traffic pattern procedures at class G and E airports. This will be graded to mean follow the proper pattern direction (left or right) and no widly abnormal traffic patterns.

Penality: 1 hour flight time and 500$ fine per each occurance.

91.129: You must be in contact with a class D tower when online.

Penality: 3 Hour flight time and 1000$ fine per each occurance.

91.130: You must get 2 way radio commuinications before entering class C airspace if approach control is online.

Penality: 3 Hour flight time and 1000$ fine per each occurance.

91.131: You must have a clearance to enter Class B airspace is approach control is online

Penality: 3 Hour flight time and 1000$ fine per each occurance.

91.133: You may not enter restricted/prohibited airspace unless ATC is online and you get a clearance to enter from ATC. If you get a clearance you MUST note this under the remarks of the leg post.

Penality: 3 Hour flight time and 1000$ fine per each occurance.

91.135: You may not operate IFR or in class A airspace (Above 18000 feet)

Penality: DQ

91.151: You must have a 30 miunte fuel reserve for day legs and 45 minute for night legs.

Penality: 3 Hour flight time and 1000$ fine per each occurance.

91.155: You may not depart when weather is less then 3sm vis and 1000' ceiling. Unless under SVFR. If you choose to depart SVFR obey 91.157 and note this in the remarks section.

Penality: 3 Hour flight time and 1000$ fine per each occurance.

91.157: You may not depart SVFR if the visability is less then 1 sm.

Penality: 3 Hour flight time and 1000$ fine per each occurance.

91.159: You must follow the hemispheric rule when above 3000' AGL

Penality: 1 Hour flight time and 100$ fine per each occurance.

91.211: You must have and use oxygen if flying above 12,500 feet on a leg.

Penality: 3 Hour flight time and 1000$ fine per each occurance.

Additionally the following penalities will occur for the following rule violations:

Fuel stop time violation: Taking off 30 minutes to 59 minutes after a fuel stop. 150$ fine.

Fuel stop time violation: Taking off 29 minutes or less after a fuel stop.
500$ fine and 1 hour flight time.

Duty Day violation: Flying more then 8 hours between hotel stops but less then 9 hours. 500$ fine and 6 hour flight time addition.

Duty Day violation: Flying more then 9 hours between hotel stops. 1000$ fine and 12 hour flight time addition.

Duty Day violation: Taking off 8 hours to 9:59 after a hotel stop. 500$ fine and 6 hour flight time addition.

Duty Day violation: Taking off less then 8 hours after a hotel stop. 1000$ fine and 12 hour flight time addition.

Speed Violation: Flying at an average KIAS greater then category limit. (doesnt apply for 180+ group). 3 hours flight time and 1000$ fine per leg.

Faliure to File a Flight Plan: 100$ fine and repeat of leg with flight plan.

Landing after sunset/Taking off before sunrise without upgrade: 1500$ fine and 2 hours flight time.

Using a GPS for navagation without GPS upgrade: 2000$ fine and 5 hours flight time.

Any incident during the trip that would not require repairs to an aircraft that is pilots fault: 1000$ and 12 hours flight time.

Any incident during the trip that would require repairs to an aircraft that is pilots fault: 2000$ and 24 hours flight time.

Improper calculation of flight cost: Correction to actual cost + 5 % penality on error.

Failure to meet an objective before landing at KMQY: 100$ fine, 1 hour flight time, and refly to an airport where objective will be met and then back to KMQY.

My word is final on all decisions. I will judge the competition and will not compete for fairness.

*************************************

The following sources will be considered as offical for competition sources:

airnav.com for all fuel costs. If an airport does not have a fuel cost listed but has fuel, use the nation average of 5.59$ per gallon.

Weather archives from vortex.plymouth.edu regarding all weather based decisions. 1 hour leeway will be given to account for vatsim server lag. Any weather from vatsim more then an hour old should be noted in the remarks for the leg.

Vataware.com for all decisions of takeoff time/landing time or flight time. Vatsim stats may be used as a backup if needed.

Vataware.com for all airspace decisions. Note some leeway will be given for close calls based on 5 minute plotting being the most accurate possible.

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.php for all sunset sunrise decisions. Leeway will be given up to civil twlight times to account for real life reg wording.

faa.gov TCDS data for all weight issues.


*****************************************

Ok thats it, any questions you have on this stuff, please ask now. The competition starts a week from Monday (9/1) at 1300Z. Unless anyone has any major complaints, these will be the final rules.
Peter Grey
Instructor - ZLA
N31ER
"Nice Landing, Contact ground point 5"

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Wayne Conrad
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:24 am
Location: Phoenix, Aridzona

Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:13 pm

Someone, somewhere must make a three-seat human/solar powered airplane with built-in fold-out tent.

Mike Cassel
Retired ATM - FAB Member
Posts: 1955
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:40 pm

Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:33 pm

PG...you'd mentioned above that this competition was prop only, is that still in effect, and does prop only mean "piston only" or are turboprops allowed too?
Mike Cassel "ML"

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Peter Grey
Posts: 1488
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:37 pm
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ (PRC)

Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:09 pm

Well offically I can't regulate airplane choice by the flying clue rules, but any real jet/turboprop can do this in 1 hop which defeats a lot of the purposes.

If there is interest Ill make a jet/turboprop category.
Peter Grey
Instructor - ZLA
N31ER
"Nice Landing, Contact ground point 5"

Mike Cassel
Retired ATM - FAB Member
Posts: 1955
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:40 pm

Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:24 am

Just two days till this gets started. This is going to be awesome.
Mike Cassel "ML"

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Wayne Conrad
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:24 am
Location: Phoenix, Aridzona

Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:03 am

N129P
PA16 (Piper Clipper)
<120KIAS
No phone, no lights, no motorcars, not a single luxury

Image

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Andrew Doubleday
Posts: 705
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:49 pm
Location: Grand Forks, ND

Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:33 am

Anyone else catch the irony of that screen shot Wayne just posted? ;)

That Clipper is clearly placarded as "VFR ONLY", however we still manage to find Wayne conducting the pre-flight in solid IFR weather, rain dumping and all... (Just giving you a hard time, Wayne - couldn't resist :D)


-AJ
Andrew James Doubleday | ZMP Visitor
University of North Dakota | FAA CTI

Image

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Wayne Conrad
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:24 am
Location: Phoenix, Aridzona

Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:14 am

The photo was taken last night, when I decided not to fly out of Gallup because it was something like "visibility 4, thunderstorm vicinity of airport, heavy rain, scattered 4,000, broken 12,000." Instead, I decided to go make mistakes in your airspace. Again. It's actually marginal VFR in this picture. The reason you can't see anything forward is because it's a tail dragger, as are so many of the best airplanes.

I'm making checklists for this contest. I don't know if I'll have the discipline to stick with their use after this contest, but little things like "Did you remember to file your flight plan?" seem pretty important. And I just got slapped pretty hard on a test flight for a checklist item. Like forgetting to set the mixture before takeoff from Gallup, NM at 10am when at max gross in a 1941 bug smasher. This is a plane that climbs at 200 fpm from that altitude at that temperature when the mixture is leaned properly. I scared the heck out of the tourists and truckers on I40 while I tried to figure out while I couldn't climb...

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Wayne Conrad
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:24 am
Location: Phoenix, Aridzona

Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:24 pm

If I plan for more than 30 minutes landing fuel, but land with less than 30, is that a DQ or penalty?

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Peter Grey
Posts: 1488
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:37 pm
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ (PRC)

Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:02 pm

If you can justify it, its nothing, no rule says you have to land with less then 30 minutes, only plan to. If you can't "3 Hour flight time and 1000$ fine per each occurance."
Peter Grey
Instructor - ZLA
N31ER
"Nice Landing, Contact ground point 5"

User avatar
Peter Grey
Posts: 1488
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:37 pm
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ (PRC)

Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:10 am

The competition is offically underway.

Everyone is free to get flying :)

Its however not to late to sign up, either sign up in this thread or start your own thread liks some have done.

For fun Ill be including a thread based on N31ER's real trip from KPRC to KMQY with periodic updates so you all can see how this was done IRL.
Peter Grey
Instructor - ZLA
N31ER
"Nice Landing, Contact ground point 5"

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